Save True LOS in TA! - Patch now!

[poosticks]

Some time ago on the TA Universe forums I discovered that the widely used McnTerra-NS.ufo custom AI patch, which was originally supplied with a 3rd party map 'Beta Tropics (Coasts)', also contained a corrected (True) line-of-sight (LoS) table. The original Cavedog LoS table had remained unchanged since v1.1. The original LoS file is broken and imposes a maximum sight limit of 288px for units with sight limits above this value.

I wondered at the time if, unlike the use of modified units by one player (which become 'greyed-out' and unusable to all in a multi-player game), a corrected LoS table were used by one player and not the other, that it might still work.

Like many of us there's not much time for TA these days, but I've finally got round to testing it and unfortunately it turns out to be true. Figures 1 & 2 show the blue player using the LoS patch and the red player having the default LoS table.


Figure 1: Blue with LoS fix. Aircraft separated to blue's max LoS.


Figure 2: Red with broken LoS. Aircraft separated to blue's max LoS.

So it was here that the story was to end with the recommendation that all players now adopt the McnTerra-NS.ufo patch as the unofficial LoS fix. It is quite widely used already But after 10 years of studying this game I still like to tinker, and I have made another discovery that kind of upsets things further or simplifies them greatly depending on your point of view...

I have been slowly checking and updating the whole site and have reached my TA commands list (which I will update soon) and noticed that the not commonly used command +lostype (which toggles between True and Circular LoS modes) was not actually a 'cheats enabled' command as I had previously assumed. In using this command one can immediately see that the TA engine uses the LoS tables for True LoS terrain variation calculations and when using circular LoS it simply uses the unit's SightDistance value.


Figure 3: Red with Circular LoS toggled via +lostype. cf. Figure 2.

This then gives players two options for fixing the True LoS problem:

• Use the McnTerra-NS.ufo LoS patch and still use True LoS effects
  
• Use +lostype to negate possible disadvantage where you don't use McnTerra-NS.ufo
  

I still have to recommend the McnTerra-NS.ufo LoS patch. It allows for True LoS effects which was one of the fundamental advancements that TA bought to RTS gaming. As discussed in the TA Universe forum thread it could make some useless units somewhat useful; the Core Leviathan which has a massive SightDistance of 490px could be of use in spotting fibbers on the minimap. Of course in using +lostype and switching to Circular LoS you actually create an advantage over the McnTerra-NS.ufo LoS patched player who is using True LoS.

Anyway, over to you. [Cross posted in the usual places.]

Cheers, poosticks

[Andrew]

Interesting stuff poosticks. I'd say just about everyone has Mcnterra in their folder. The exceptions being people who have recently reinstalled and forgot and some total noobs which advantages or disadvantages are nothing to them. Is it included in the all in 1 install does anyone know? If so then we pretty much all have it.

The typing in +lostype in game is the most interesting part for me and good work on that. And just as I am about to hit submit i start to think why this is the case... Aren't the hawks in the photos landed? So the true LOS Hawk wouldn't see as far as the circular LOS Hawk which makes sense..The landed Hawk on circular sees as far as it would see if it was airborne. If this is the case they will see the same far when in the air when both using true LOS.

[poosticks]

Hi Andrew, I checked the all-in-one installer 2 and it has McnTerra-NS.ufo in it.



I also looked at height effects and LoS. It appears that the game engine does not use height data for LoS.

Below are two shots of a hawk spot-patrolling on The Pass (True-LoS, not fixed) then stopped (note its shadow's location).





Next I added another Hawk close under the position where the patrolling Hawk is. Then I removed patrolling Hawk. I don't really see a difference that the minor vertical misalignment does not explain.





Based on this I would speculate that for LoS as relates to height, the engine only uses the X-Y coordinates of the unit to establish the LoS boundary. When an aircraft 'rises' it gives the perception of gaining height by moving the aircraft relative to the fixed camera angle of the game. But because the map is an X-Y grid, moving it 'higher' actually moves it to an upper grid reference. It does not expand the view as might be thought.

Finally, to answer your question, here's the first image of the Hawk spot-patrolling with True LoS with another in Circular LoS mode.





Cheers, poosticks

[Andrew]

I think youre confusing yourself over all this. I tested it and the only thing that is maybe true is that mcnterra patch fixes LOS table. I didn't bother taking it out and checking but i assume it does if that's what you say. The rest of this stuff i cant replicate. Circular mode doesn't give greater los than true. Other than the stuff you cant see with true los...behind hills.... etc. Looks like you have more than 1 hawk in the bottom picture... maybe 1 on ground and 1 in the air??? When the hawk is floating its not on its shadow location. It's 2 separate locations.

When you change to circular from true it doesnt suddenly give you extra los is the summary for anyone reading.

[poosticks]

Except for the last shot, all the LoS if for non-McnTerra modified los "(True-LoS, not fixed)". If you don't have McnTerra changing from true- to circular- LoS makes a huge difference.

The bottom screenshot does have 2 Hawks, but this makes no difference to the result and I didn't make a screenshot with the bottom one removed.

Dec 14, 2011 14:52:47 GMT -5 Andrew said:

When the hawk is floating its not on its shadow location. It's 2 separate locations.

Yes, I had hoped I had explained this.

[Andrew]

Lol... well you don't mention that all the shots except the last are from non mcnterra. You say it's true LOS and then circular LOS.

To be honest i didnt have a clue what he first 4 images were meant to be, now i think that it was to eliminate someone thinking the shadow is the spot the hawk is at when airborne? If so fair enough since some people might not get that.

So your point is circular mode on a TA without Mcnterrra is like both modes on a TA with Mcnterra, max LOS wise, but true los mode on a non Mcnterra gives u less LOS yea? It's ok tho cos everyone has Mcnterra

[poosticks]

The first 4 images show how aircraft don't really go up in height, they just seem to. They only move position in the vertical axis of the 2D map. I wanted to show this because it explains why there is no difference in LoS between flying aircraft and grounded ones.

Dec 14, 2011 17:14:22 GMT -5 Andrew said:

So your point is circular mode on a TA without Mcnterrra is like both modes on a TA with Mcnterra, max LOS wise, but true los mode on a non Mcnterra gives u less LOS yea? It's ok tho cos everyone has Mcnterra

Yes, exactly. And at least with Mcnterra (vs. circular LoS) you wouldn't be able to see over tall hills.

[Andrew]

Ok fair enough. Sorry to have sounded like a smartass cos i probably did. It's just it seemed to me that it was made out people can now suddenly cheat with a modified los table. And it was really just that nothing has changed.

[meataxe]

RVD shutup... your an idiot.